In the wake of acclaimed comedy writer Graham Linehan’s shocking arrest at London’s Heathrow Airport last week over a trio of X posts he made about radical trans activists and ideology, Piers Morgan hosted a debate about the state of free speech.
That panel discussion took a surprising turn when one of the panelists, who identified as both “non-binary” and “trans,” was unable to explain what it actually means to be “non-binary” – and blamed Morgan for even seeking clarification in the first place.
On Tuesday’s show, Megyn was joined by Andrew Klavan, author of After That, the Dark, to discuss the meltdown and the impact of “wokeness” in culture today.
The Mind-Numbing Exchange
On an episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored that dropped September 5, Morgan was joined by Riley Gaines, Blaire White, Helen Webberley, Laurie Penny, and Lionel Shriver for a discussion about the tweets that led to Linehan’s arrest and what it means for free speech.
Morgan argued that Linehan was “cracking a rather crass joke” not “inciting a crime” with his language, and he asked White, who was born male but transitioned, for comment. “Blaire’s a trans woman,” Morgan said. “Why don’t we let her answer?”
That led Penny, who was born female and has seemingly not transitioned, to inject that she is “also transgender.” When Morgan asked “which trans are you,” Penny inexplicably answered “non-binary.” That led to a mind-numbing – but illuminating – back and forth:
MORGAN: What does that mean?
PENNY: I’m a non-binary person. I use they/them pronouns. Sorry, are we going to spend– Do we really want to spend the rest of this discussing my personal gender identity?
MORGAN: You’re the one who mentioned it. I didn’t even know… So, now, I know. I’m just asking you what that means.
PENNY: Like, do you really want to discuss this?
MORGAN: You raised the subject of yourself being trans. I’m simply asking… It’s really interesting to me. You raised it, not me. I didn’t even know. So now you’ve raised it. What does that actually mean? What do you mean, you’re non-binary?
In an apparent effort to change the subject, Penny accused Morgan of cutting White off. But White interjected that Penny was actually the one who did so first, and Morgan picked things up where they left off.
MORGAN: Sorry, Blaire, wait one second. I just want to ask, what do you mean by non-binary?
PENNY: When I say I’m non-binary, I’m expressing my identity in a way that I have a right to do.
MORGAN: What does that mean? What’s your sexuality?
PENNY: My sexuality? It doesn’t have anything to do with my sexuality.
Apparently, it has more to do with pronouns.
PENNY: I go by they/them pronouns.
MORGAN: What does that mean? There is only one of you. What does ‘they,them’ mean
PENNY: Actually… the collective ‘they’ has been used to refer to individual people for centuries and still is. So, if you don’t understand basic grammar, that’s on you.
MORGAN: I’ve got to be honest with you, I don’t understand the concept of what non-binary means or why you would use a plural pronoun to describe a singular person. To me, this is the problem with the whole ‘woke’ thing. It’s inexplicable. Nobody really knows what it means. I don’t know what you mean by non-binary, they/them. There’s one of you sitting here and you look, to me, female. You’re a female? Are you a female?
PENNY: If you don’t understand what non-binary means–
MORGAN: Are you a female?
PENNY: If you don’t understand what non-binary means, then I’m not sure you’re in a position to lead a debate.
But Morgan still didn’t back down.
MORGAN: So, just tell me… Explain what non-binary is.
PENNY: It means that my gender identity is something other than man or woman. I’m a non-binary individual.
MORGAN: But you accept you’re a female?
PENNY: I don’t think that I’m here to discuss the contents of my underpants. I don’t think that’s appropriate.
MORGAN: You raised this whole thing. I didn’t mention anything about what you were. You did. You said, I’m trans.
When Penny claimed the exchange had become “uncomfortably personal,” Morgan said she only had herself to blame. Gaines, meanwhile, was quick with the capper. “If you think this is uncomfortably personal, try undressing in a locker room with a 6-foot-4 naked man,” she quipped.
‘Completely Exposed’
Megyn called the clip “amazing” thanks to Morgan “completely expos[ing] this person just by asking that simple question.” And rather than let it go as Penny clearly wished, “he was like a dog with a bone in asking it once he realized she couldn’t answer it.”
In her view, it proves just how far the gender ideology debate has spiraled. “It’s amazing how these leftists throw out these terms or even adopt them as their own identity without being able to even define them,” Megyn noted. “I think there’s a world in which you could find somebody using that term, where they would have a definition at the ready for you… [but] she is too dumb to understand. That seemed obvious.”
Klavan said he was not surprised Penny was so dumbfounded by Morgan’s line of questioning. “I have read some of these books about transgenderism to sort of get what they are talking about, and they are just not true. They are just telling people that the world is not what it is,” he said. “So, I’m not surprised that this person identifies as something they can’t even define.”
He called Penny’s “self-righteous” attitude “comical” – but only in its tragicness. “It is comical in the context of this greater tragedy of people talking confused young people into madness and induced mental illness,” Klavan concluded. “It is a truly evil thing.”
You can check out Megyn’s full interview with Klavan by tuning in to episode 1,144 on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. And don’t forget that you can catch The Megyn Kelly Show live on SiriusXM’s Triumph (channel 111) weekdays from 12pm to 2pm ET.